Author Topic: Gay Marriage  (Read 118 times)

Kyle

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Gay Marriage
« on: December 13, 2010, 06:59:15 pm »
OK, I know this is a strong topic, but I'll do it anyways >: D

Either way, onto the debate.

For one, I am not gay. However, I'm not against gay marriage. I think the guys and girls out there should have the same rights with marriage of the same gender as two people of different genders married. I mean, what is wrong about two men or women getting married?

Before posting your reply, make sure you actually have some backup in your statement. Not just this, if you're against it.

"Gay marriage is wrong. It's creepy."

The same goes for people who are for it.

Debate!
You kids these days with your Millenium Items, and your card games, and your loud music, and your Hula Hoops, and your hop scotch, and your Dungarees, and your lolipops, and your Sony Playstations, and your voice activated light switches, and your leather pants, and your artificial insemenation, and your blu-ray discs, and your pierced bullocks, and your bullfrogs, and your telekenisis, and your marvel comics and your Youtube dot com, and your nuclear physics, and your ingrowing toenails, and your Gears of War, and your Quentin Tarantino, and your power steering, and your elevators, and your Illigitimate offspring...
___________________________________
So here we go, let's take a chance
On the hunt for the leather pants,
Lookin hard, no second chance,
The pinnacle of all evil plans,
Where's the Pharaoh with his stash?
Gotta get 'em right off his ass,
Magic powers that are locked inside,
Now? let the goodness we have to find.
Two villains that have been cursed,
Want to control the universe.
With a rod and a shiny necklace,
Well that's kinda odd.
But wait, they might have a chance,
To make their evil plan advance.
They're gonna have to get them some sexy Leather Pants.
Now sing it!

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Kael

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Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2010, 07:17:57 pm »
Well to be honest it seems purely unnatural for homosexuality to even exits. God puts it on the same level as being with animals. Our country, despite what most people think, was founded on strong religious beliefs by strongly religious men. I think they'd be turning over in their graves if they saw gay marriage being legalized. Because sex with animals is illegal in most (if not all) the US as well as almost the entire world.
A great love is like a good memory.
If it's there, and you know it's there, it can be all you think about.
Then you can focus on it and try to force it.
But it seems the more you do, the more you push it away.
Instead, if you stand still and wait, maybe it'll come to you.

FLU FLU FISH (Koulgen)

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Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2010, 07:54:05 pm »
I think that religious gay marriage is wrong, because it is go against it. If they did their own thing I would be find, but they are basically trying to saying F U we are going to change 100s of years of tradition. That is why I won't have a religious marriage. I am an atheist so I won't go, and swear to god about stuff. Oh, and about that founders comment. It is true that this government was founded on religion, by religious men, and they set up the government on mostly their beliefs, but remember back then everyone in America believed the same thing. It wasn't till the second immigration rush that religion started to vary, and when it did our laws changed. Now with all the gay, and pro gays wanting change the government basically has to allow it, but government, and religion are separate, and aren't suppose to affect each other. It's quite a conundrum. So the most the government should allow is the right to marry under law not religion.

Kyle

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Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2010, 08:35:56 pm »
So, I've done a bit of research (Lol) and this is what I got.

Arguments of Gay Marriage

The Arguments Against Gay Marriage
Well, of course there are a lot of reasons being offered these days for opposing gay marriage, and they are usually variations on a few well-established themes. Interestingly, a court in Hawaii has recently heard them all. And it found, after due deliberation, that they didn't hold water.

Here's a summary:

1. Marriage is an institution between one man and one woman. Well, that's the most often heard argument, one even codified in a recently passed U.S. federal law. Yet it is easily the weakest. Who says who marriage is to be defined by? The married? The marriable? Isn't that kind of like allowing a banker to decide who is going to own the money in stored in his vaults? It seems to me that if the straight community cannot show a compelling reason to deny the institution of marriage to gay people, it shouldn't be denied. And such simple, nebulous declarations are hardly a compelling reason. They're really more like an expression of prejudce than any kind of a real argument. The concept of not denying people their rights unless you can show a compelling reason to do so is the very basis of the American ideal of human rights.

2. Marriage is for procreation. The proponents of that argument are really hard pressed to explain why, if that's the case, that infertile couples are allowed to marry. I, for one, would love to be there when the proponent of such an argument is to explain to his post-menopausal mother or impotent father that since they cannot procreate, they must now surrender their wedding rings! That would be fun to watch! Again, such an argument fails to persuade based on the marriages society does allow routinely, without even a second thought.

3. Same-sex couples aren't the optimum environment in which to raise children. That's an interesting one, in light of who society does allow to get married and bring children into their marriage. Check it out: murderers, convicted felons of all sorts, even known child molesters are all allowed to freely marry and procreate, and do so every day, with hardly a second thought by these same critics. So if children are truly the priority here, why is this allowed? Why are the advocates of this argument not working to prohibit the above categories of people from raising children?

The fact is that many gay couples raise children, adopted and occasionally their own from failed attempts at heterosexual marriages. Lots and lots of scientific studies have shown that the outcomes of the children raised in the homes of gay and lesbian couples are just as good as those of straight couples. The differences have been shown again and again to be insignificant. Psychologists tell us that what makes the difference is the love of the parents, not their gender. The studies are very clear about that. And gay people are as capable of loving children as fully as anyone else.

4. Gay relationships are immoral and violate the sacred institution of marriage. Says who? The Bible? Somehow, I always thought that freedom of religion implied the right to freedom from religion as well. The Bible has absolutely no standing in American law (and none other than the father of the American democracy, Thomas Jefferson, very proudly took credit for that fact), and because it doesn't, no one has the right to impose rules anyone else simply because of something they percieve to be mandated by the Bible. Not all world religions have a problem with homosexuality; many sects of Buddhism, for example, celebrate gay relationships freely and would like to have the authority to make them legal marriages. In that sense, their religious freedom is being infringed. If one believes in religious freedom, the recognition that opposition to gay marriage is based on religious arguments is reason enough to discount this argument.

5. Marriages are for ensuring the continuation of the species. The proponents of such an argument are going to have a really hard time persuading me that the human species is in any real danger of dying out through lack of procreation. If the ten percent of all the human race that is gay were to suddenly refrain from procreation, I think it is safe to say that the world would probably be better off. One of the world's most serious problems is overpopulation and the increasing anarchy that is resulting from it. Seems to me that gays would be doing the world a favor by not bringing more hungry mouths into an already overburdened world. So why encourage them? The vacuity of this argument is seen in the fact that those who raise this objection never object to infertile couples marrying; indeed, when their retired single parent, long past reproductive age, seeks to marry, the usual reaction is how cute and sweet that is. That fact alone shows how false this argument really is. Let's face it - marriage is about love and commitment, and support for that commitment, not about procreation.

6. Same-sex marriage would threaten the institution of marriage. That one's contradictory right on the face of it. Threaten marriage? By allowing people to marry? That doesn't sound very logical to me. If you allow gay people to marry each other, you no longer encourage them to marry people to whom they feel little attraction, with whom they most often cannot relate sexually, and thereby reduce the number of supposed heterosexual marriages that end up in the divorce courts. If it is the institution of heterosexual marriage that worries you, then consider that no one would require you or anyone else to participate in a gay marriage. So you would have freedom of choice, of choosing what kind of marriage to participate in -- something more than what you have now. And speaking of divorce -- to argue that the institution of marriage is worth preserving at the cost of requiring involuntary participants to remain in it is a better argument for tightening divorce laws than proscribing gay marriage.

7. We shouldn't alter heterosexual marriage, which is a traditional institution that goes back to the dawn of time. This is morally the weakest argument. Slavery was also a traditional institution, based on traditions that went back to the very beginnings of human history. But by the 19th century, humankind had realized the evils of that institution, and abolished its legal status. So what happened to tradition?

In the first place, no one is proposing the alteration of heterosexual marriage at all. Heterosexuals may still marry (and divorce) at will - entirely unaffected by the institution of gay marriage. No change there - not even one whit.

Then there is the issue of divorce. If we are supposed to worship the traditional status and nature of marriage, why do we freely allow divorce, which has only been legal in most states for just a few decades? To suggest to most of the ardent supporters of this argument that they should not only be married, but will get only one shot at getting it right, and a mistake will and must permanently ruin their life, will sound onerous. But how less onerous is the notion that one will have to marry someone one cannot love and to whom one cannot relate, if one is to enjoy the benefits of marriage? Clearly, this hypocrisy - on the one hand, asserting the importance of the traditional nature of marriage, while allowing its destruction through the thoroughly modern concept of divorce with hardly a second thought - demonstrates very clearly that this really isn't about traditional definitions at all, it's about using this argument as a cover for another, less acceptable motivation. Why not recognize the hypocrisy - that there is no sound moral ground on which to support the notion of worshipfully traditional heterosexual marriage while freely allowing its destruction through divorce? Wouldn't it just be better to recognize that the concept of marriage is not as rigidly traditional and fixed as claimed?

8. Same-sex marriage is an untried social experiment. The American critics of same-sex marriage betray their provincialism with this argument. The fact is that a form of gay marriage has been legal in Denmark since 1989 (full marriage rights except for adoption rights and church weddings, and a proposal now exists in the Danish parliament to allow both of those rights as well), and most of the rest of Scandinavia from not long after. Full marriage rights have existed in many Dutch cities for several years, and it was recently made legal nationwide, including the word "marriage" to describe it. In other words, we have a long-running "experiment" to examine for its results -- which have uniformly been positive. Opposition to the Danish law was led by the clergy (much the same as in the States). A survey conducted at the time revealed that 72 percent of Danish clergy were opposed to the law. It was passed anyway, and the change in the attitude of the clergy there has been dramatic -- a survey conducted in 1995 indicated that 89 percent of the Danish clergy now admit that the law is a good one and has had many beneficial effects, including a reduction in suicide, a reduction in the spread of sexually transmitted diseases and in promiscuity and infidelity among gays. Far from leading to the "destruction of Western civilization" as some critics (including the Mormon and Catholic churches among others) have warned, the result of the "experiment" has actually been civilizing and strengthening, not just to the institution of marriage, but to society as a whole. So perhaps we should accept the fact that someone else has already done the "experiment" and accept the results as positive. The fact that many churches are not willing to accept this evidence says more about the churches than it does about gay marriage.

9. Same-sex marriage would start us down a "slippery slope" towards legalized incest, bestial marriage, polygamy and all manner of other horrible consequences. A classic example of the reductio ad absurdum fallacy, it is calculated to instill fear in the mind of anyone hearing the argument. It is, of course, absolutely without any merit based on experience. If the argument were true, wouldn't that have already happened in countries where forms of legalized gay marriage already exist? Wouldn't they have 'slid' towards legalized incest and bestial marriage? The reality is that a form of gay marriage has been legal in Scandinavian countries for many years, and no such legalization has happened, nor has there been a clamor for it. It's a classic scare tactic - making the end scenario so scary and so horrible that the first step should never be taken. Such are the tactics of the fear and hatemongers.

If concern over the "slippery slope" were the real motive behind this argument, the advocate of this line of reasoning would be equally vocal about the fact that today, even as you read this, convicted murderers, child molesters, known ****, drug pushers, pimps, black market gun dealers, etc., are quite free to marry, and are doing so every day. Where's the outrage? Of course there isn't any, and that lack of outrage betrays their real motives. This is an anti-gay issue and not a pro marriage or child protection issue.

10. Granting gays the right to marry is a "special" right. Since ninety percent of the population already have the right to marry the informed, consenting adult of their choice, and would even consider that right a fundamental, constitutionally protected right, since when does extending it to the rest constitute a "special" right to that remaining ten percent? As Justice Kennedy observed in his opinion overturning Colorado's infamous Amendment 2 (Roemer vs. Evans), many gay and lesbian Americans are, under current law, denied civil rights protections that others either don't need or assume that everyone else along with themselves, already have. The problem with all that special rights talk is that it proceeds from that very assumption, that because of all the civil rights laws in this country that everyone is already equal, so therefore any rights gay people are being granted must therefore be special. That is most assuredly not the case, especially regarding marriage and all the legal protections that go along with it.

11. Churches would be forced to marry gay people against their will. This one has absolutely no basis in law whatever, existing or proposed. There are many marriages to which many churches object, such as interracial marriage, interfaith marriage, the marriage of divorcees, etc., and yet no state law of which I am aware requires any church to marry any couple when that church objects to performance of that particular marriage. The right granted by the state to a church to perform marriages is a right, not a requirement, and to pretend that it would be a requirement in the case of gays, but not in the above examples, is disingenuous on the face of it.

12. If gay marriage is legalized, homosexuality would be promoted in the public schools. Gay marriage is already legal in several states and many foreign countries, including Canada, but can anyone point to an example of homosexuality being promoted in the public schools? No. Because it hasn't happened in any significant way. What is being objected to is tolerance of gays, not genuine promotion of homosexuality. And if tolerance itself is not acceptable, what is the absence of tolerance? It is bigotry. If we do not promote tolerance in the public schools, we are accepting that bigotry has a place there. Is this really what we want?

13. Gay marriage and its associated promotion of homosexuality would undermine western civilization. Homosexuality is as old as civilization itself, and has always been a part of civilization, including this one - indeed, cross-cultural studies indicate that the percentage of homosexuals in a population is independent of culture. So even if promotion of homosexuality were to occur, it wouldn't change anything - people aren't gay because they were "recruited," they're gay because they were born that way, as the population statistics across cultures makes clear. As for gay marriage itself undermining western civilization, it is hard to see how the promotion of love, commitment, sharing and commonality of values and goals isn't going to strengthen civilization a lot sooner than it is going to undermine it. Gay marriage has been legal, in various forms, in parts of Europe for more than twenty years, and in Canada and many states in the United States for some time now, but can anyone point to any credible evidence that gay marriage itself is leading to the crumbling of western civilization? If they can, it certainly hasn't been presented to me.

14. If gay people really want to get married, all they have to do is to become straight and marry someone of the opposite sex. There are several problems with this argument, the first of which is that it presumes that sexual orientation is a choice. This lie is promoted so endlessly by bigoted religious leaders that it has become accepted as fact by society as a whole, and it was advanced, beginning in the 1980's, for the purpose of discrediting the gay rights movement. But the reality is that a half century of social research on this subject, consisting of thousands of studies, beginning with the Kinsey and Minnesota Twin studies of the 1950's and continuing to the present, has shown conclusively - beyond any reasonable doubt - that among males, sexual orientation is only very slightly flexible, and among females, it is only modestly more so. That homosexuality is, among males at least, congenital, inborn, and has a genetic component of about 50% and somewhat less among females. In other words, if you're gay, you're gay and there is little that you do about it.

Another problem with this argument is that it presumes that heterosexuality, if it were a choice, is self-evidently a more desireable and/or morally superior choice to make. This is a qualitative argument with whom many gay people - and many thinking straight people as well, both religious and secular - would take issue.

A third problem is that this argument presumes that someone else has the right to veto your presumed choice sexual orientation on the basis that they are not comfortable with the choice you have made. It is difficult for me to see how any religionist or anti-gay bigot, however sincere and well-meaning, has the right to arrogate to himself that veto power. Or, frankly, why a homosexual should be forced to go out of his way to make bigots comfortable with their bigotry.

A fourth, legalistic problem with this argument is that it presumes that if the choice of sexual orientation can be made, the voluntary nature of that choice removes any and all right to the protection of the law for the choice which has been made. But I would point out that the First Amendment to the United States constitution protects, by constitutional fiat itself, a purely voluntary choice - that of religion. So if it is acceptable to argue that unpopular sexual minorities have no right to equal protection of the law because they can avoid disadvantage or persecution by voluntarily changing the choice they have presumably made, then it is equally true that the First Amendment should not include protection for choice in religion, because no rational person could argue that religious belief is itself not a choice. In other words, this is like arguing that you should not expect legal protection from being persecuted because you are a Mormon or a Catholic; the solution to such disadvantage or persecution is simple: just become a Southern Baptist or whatever. I have never, ever seen a religious opponent of homosexuality who is asserting that homosexuality is a choice, advance that last point with regards to religion - a fact which very glaringly demonstrates the clearly bigoted character of this argument.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 08:54:50 pm by The Pharaoh »
You kids these days with your Millenium Items, and your card games, and your loud music, and your Hula Hoops, and your hop scotch, and your Dungarees, and your lolipops, and your Sony Playstations, and your voice activated light switches, and your leather pants, and your artificial insemenation, and your blu-ray discs, and your pierced bullocks, and your bullfrogs, and your telekenisis, and your marvel comics and your Youtube dot com, and your nuclear physics, and your ingrowing toenails, and your Gears of War, and your Quentin Tarantino, and your power steering, and your elevators, and your Illigitimate offspring...
___________________________________
So here we go, let's take a chance
On the hunt for the leather pants,
Lookin hard, no second chance,
The pinnacle of all evil plans,
Where's the Pharaoh with his stash?
Gotta get 'em right off his ass,
Magic powers that are locked inside,
Now? let the goodness we have to find.
Two villains that have been cursed,
Want to control the universe.
With a rod and a shiny necklace,
Well that's kinda odd.
But wait, they might have a chance,
To make their evil plan advance.
They're gonna have to get them some sexy Leather Pants.
Now sing it!

Blaze

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Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2010, 03:46:35 pm »
If you think about it this way, it should be allowed.  I mean, they are people too and were created the same as anyone else.  It's not fair to them to take away their freedoms just because we don't have the same opinions.  I don't think it's fair for straight people to tell the gays that, since they don't share our sexuality then they don't get to share in the freedoms that the rest of America has.  And even if they can't get married, they will still be together, you can't change how a person feels by telling them too.
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darkangel

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Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2010, 06:03:09 pm »
Ok you do have some good points but i have one question

IF gay marriage or gays in general were ever supposed to exist then why would men have penises and why would woman have vaginas?

FLU FLU FISH (Koulgen)

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Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2010, 06:22:26 pm »
Accually they're not suppose to exist they are a biological imposibility that still exist. Their chemical make-up was messed up at a point in time.

Kyle

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Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2010, 11:25:49 pm »
Uhh, because if we didn't, how would we procreate? Duh. I'm surprised you're dumb enough to say that. Also, Koulgen is right. Remember, don't just play the god card in your response, have some backup evidence. You can't beat my reasoning that easily :P
You kids these days with your Millenium Items, and your card games, and your loud music, and your Hula Hoops, and your hop scotch, and your Dungarees, and your lolipops, and your Sony Playstations, and your voice activated light switches, and your leather pants, and your artificial insemenation, and your blu-ray discs, and your pierced bullocks, and your bullfrogs, and your telekenisis, and your marvel comics and your Youtube dot com, and your nuclear physics, and your ingrowing toenails, and your Gears of War, and your Quentin Tarantino, and your power steering, and your elevators, and your Illigitimate offspring...
___________________________________
So here we go, let's take a chance
On the hunt for the leather pants,
Lookin hard, no second chance,
The pinnacle of all evil plans,
Where's the Pharaoh with his stash?
Gotta get 'em right off his ass,
Magic powers that are locked inside,
Now? let the goodness we have to find.
Two villains that have been cursed,
Want to control the universe.
With a rod and a shiny necklace,
Well that's kinda odd.
But wait, they might have a chance,
To make their evil plan advance.
They're gonna have to get them some sexy Leather Pants.
Now sing it!

Melvin

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Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2010, 12:33:14 pm »
Yeah dark that really was a weak argument.. The way I see it is that people should be allowed to be who they are. I think that homosexuals have every right to be married as long as it isn't in a church.. Obviously Christianity scorns and hates homosexuals. There is no way in hades that they will ever be allowed that. If they want to be married in a courtroom though I don't see the problem.